A good way to limit this problem is to apply a bonding agent to the surface of your cementitious backer board before applying the liquid waterproofing membrane. The New Age of Shower Waterproofing Products, This Contractors Opinions and Preferences. Sorry I couldnt be of more help but its really difficult to say without seeing it. I use Weldbond for this purpose (pictured above) because its easy to use, non-toxic, economical, and readily available. The winter temps can fall into the 30s and the summers the 90s, though the temperature in the house stays pretty constant because of our foam roof. l like sheet. Even with a mortar imbedded waterproofing membrane laying over top of the bare foam base, it is still considerably vulnerable to impact damage. These old shower wall waterproofing methods were seriously flawed and needed to be replaced with the new membrane systems, not supplemented by them. It also be a good idea to suspend some wire mesh between the rebar if the hole is bigger than 2 square feet. Heres how to do it correctly First drill a few holes around the perimeter of the new hole that you created so you can insert rebar for support. Thanks for all the info . Given that Hydro Ban has 1.25 perm rating, would the Hydro Ban Sheet Membrane be a better option to waterproof a shower providing the contractor has a lot of experienced installing the Hydroban Sheet Membrane? The reason why we are doing this remodel is because the shower was leaking into the exterior block walls. TIA!! As I mentioned, I have never performed this kind of test on the Durock membrane, so I was not aware of this strange performance. A hole in the shower wall was always a risky undertaking and almost always resulted in water running into the shower wall no matter how careful the contractor was when building these problematic shower boxes. Its great that you applied closed cell spray foam in the shower wall and ceiling. A much cheaper way to extend one of these bases is with dry pack mortar. With this in mind we are wondering about the denshield we were planning to use for the wallboard you mention in a comment above that denshield does not have a good perm value and recommend red guard over top. The bottom line is. Time is of the essence . If you do this, you should not paint any RedGard over the seams. it would really depend on how permeable these planks are.
The manufacturer says that a reinforcing tape in the corners and seams is optional but they also sell this type of product (Mapeband) if you want to provide additional protection. So options are to get a standard 36w and extent to 42 if you think my method of redguarding the extensikn works, trimming the 44 hydro ban down to 42 or worst case splurging on the wedi. Top subscription boxes right to your door, 1996-2022, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates. Here is a good article describing the differences between the two systems in detail. Bottom line is.. Paint the liquid a few inches over the sheet where they meet? article was incredibly well written and thorough. This is not a standard practice because these assemblies are designed to last for many years without worry. I know its a lot of work to remove it, but the condition of the vertical section of the old rubber membrane is not likely representative of whats happening below the pan and around the curb. And this method is still used today by installers that subscribe to the if it aint broke, no need to fix it school of thought. They use this stuff in industrial water systems, and it is safe in drinking water. This is a great web site, Im glad I found before getting any further along with my project. Firstly, bare foam will not bond to a traditional thinset mortar. The bases that are covered with a cementitious coating do not require a membrane to be bonded to their surface and include a drain assembly that glues into place with a special adhesive. Its magic I guess. How is this code accommodated with a curbless entry? Spray foam is such an exceptional insulator that the temperature on the foam surface should be nearly the same as that of the tile and backer board assembly. You really need to do this step correctly. What is best way to waterproof the wall/base joint. RedGard with Goof Proof Slope System and Kirb Perfect, RedGard with Goof Proof Slope System and Handi Curb. With the membrane, and without the membrane. Stone, Ceramic or Porcelain Shower Tile Which is Best? I am converting a tub to a shower.
Most shower waterproofing membranes fall into Class II but some end up in Class III as well. This base is fixed to the subfloor via unmodified thinset mortar (explained in Kerdi membrane section). Hi Steve Any vapor retarder will only limit the amount of moisture that can pass through it, not eliminate it. Hello, and thank you for your definitive guide on waterproofing membranes. I did have to extend the shower base with a mud bed and figured I would cover with kerdi sheet. At the time, tile and grout were considered to be relatively impermeable to water so it was not considered to be a problem. Just Google dry pack shower base. Hopefully youre not as confused as the cartoon man in the picture, but wherever youre at in your investigation, I think youll find this post useful. It has never leaked and when I exposed the liner coming up the wall it looks and feels fine, was dry and no mold. It also wouldnt hurt to apply your 1/2 cement board under the Schluter shower base as well, since youre applying it on the rest of your floor anyways. Maybe it is rarely mentioned because it is very expensive at 125.00 bucks per gallon, but you can find it in most waterproofing construction suppliers. I have seen this in countless demolitions, even if the subfloor had the proper slope and the weep holes were not blocked. Ive decided to use only a kurdi waterproof membrane. I have very little experience with Tile Redi plastic shower pans so I cant really comment based on personal experience. document.getElementById("copyright_year").innerHTML = new Date().getFullYear(); All OneLiner Shower Pan Waterproofing Kits, Easy to Assemble Barrier Free Shower Kits, All Shower Waterproofing Kits and Components, Construction and Installation Accessories, All Construction and Installation Accessories. As you indicated, its important not to mess with the fire wall but you can attach some backer board over the Type X wall board if you use a stud finder to mark the studs and buy some longer backer board screws. It doesnt mean that this cant be done safely (I have been forced to do this on a few occasions) but it does have warrantee implications. Could I use the methods explained above on the plywood walls under the metal and then seal the metal edges with silicone or do the methods above require a grout layer to be applied directly on top to seal them in? Vapor retarders are rated as to their moisture permeability and given a perm rating that represents how much water vapour will pass through the material in a given period of time at a given pressure (1 grain of water vapor per hour, per square foot, per inch of mercury).
These old school waterproofing systems were very often installed incorrectly causing breaches in the rubber membrane.
Im getting the impression that you really dont want to take out that old shower pan. However, when tiling the rest of the bathroom floor, I need to also lay down 1/2 cement board before tiling. There are not a lot of established requirements when it comes to the definition of a waterproofing membrane for use in a shower environment. Please let me know what you think in the comments below. I apologize if I did. I would suggest that you install a prefab foam board niche or custom modify your own custom sized foam niche. This sheet membrane system was engineered for the high water vapor environment of steam shower. Silicon takes forever to dry and it probably wont stick to the membrane. There is also a glass door which I wont use. I would also apply a 1/2 bead of sealant to bond and seal the Wedi panel to the Schluter shower pan. We will embark on a master bath reno soon, and hoping you can answer some questions before we start. I would like to build a mortar curb the same thickness as the mud bed and put the marble threshold on top as this is as close as I can get to what I was planning with curbless entry. I am redoing a bathroom and the cement board has red guard on it and I was planning on using the Kerdi membrane is this going to be a problem? Thanks, Claire. However, he claimed that he could do it with Kerdi Board and liquid membrane sealer (marpei iirc). In this post Im going to show you what type of tile (ceramic or porcelain or stone) is the best choice for your shower wallsRead More Stone, Ceramic or Porcelain Shower Tile Which is Best? And yet . If you want to tackle the job of installing a mortar base, I would suggest you look at a few blog posts and videos on the subject in order to get familiar. Is this something you would recommend? You speak about stainless steel shower niches in your articlethe Kohler product is aluminum. Thank you in advance! Secondly, I cant seem to get my hands on a Wedi or Hydro-Blok shower base. The raised sections work well to allow air to move up the roofline but they are probably not a good idea in the shower. The under tile waterproofing with the integrated membrane bonding drain assembly is the key to this system. We are here to help you with your design ideas and waterproofing options. You would need to buy a roll of sheet membrane seam tape and the adhesive joint sealant to attach it. Any time you are building a shower pan you need to do a water test, this is after the pan and curb are in plug the drain, put water mark level and wait 24 hrs to make sure there are no leaks. After youve roughed in your new shower drain, mix some dry pack mortar to fill the hole. This is not a waterproofing membrane because there is no such thing, but a good sealer will limit moisture transmission into the base and walls. The best way to answer your questions is to refer you to a great video from Schluter Systems. As I mentioned in my response to a previous comment, I do not recommend installing two different waterproofing membranes over each other. The back wall is an exterior wall, and the side wall is not. Sounds like a fun project and a great upgrade! This is a terrible scenario in the long term. Thank you for the feedback. If you have completed or are planning to complete a shower remodel, youve likely wondered about shower waterproofing. Sorry for the bad news but this would be even worse than the Fine Homebuilding suggestion in my opinion. I even burned/back buttered some mortar into a small test strip of membrane and got the same results. I just wanted to clarify that the leaky shower is due to a ruptured shower mixer. Ive never used it but Ive heard that its great for DIYers. Very informative. So basically the shower pan will be 3/4 subfloor, Schluter preformed bed pan, then tile. I cant imagine anyone installing the Durock base without a membrane because you could not attach your tiles to it it would be a total disaster. Youre seeing this ad based on the products relevance to your search query. It also has a fleece covered surface so that a standard thin set mortar can be used to bond the tile to its surface (unlike its plastic competitors). Older homes also were a lot more forgiving when it came to water penetration in and around the shower assembly. I would recommend you first remove any vapor retarder plastic sheet or felt from the stud surface on all the outside shower walls.
thanks. Ive seen videos of both. The Durock pre-sloped foam shower trays are part of their shower system which includes the waterproofing membrane, pre-formed corners, pipe and valve seals and foam shower curb. It is easy to see how shower nooks and niches could be the cause of major water infiltration issues in the showers of the past, when they still cause problems in some shower today. The result was always a rank, toxic smell from the bi-products of rubber and cement breaking down, and mold.. lots of mold. We recently hired a licensed contractor to remodel 2 bathrooms, one with a tub, and one with a steel shower pan. You simply dilute it with water (follow the directions for using as a bonding agent), and apply one coat to the tile backer surface using a roller and brush. The bottom line is, the lower the perm rating, the less moisture will get through the membrane. I have lots of carpentry experience but basically zero with plumbing/showers/tiling I followed most of what you wrote (but maybe not everything, Im still learning). Dix Systems Inc.
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The new pan had been installed. You must allow 12 hours to cure before flood testing. I am installing a shower kit with the rigid plastic wall panels. In other words I would need a bit more experience working with it to make any comments about it. I would be OK with the RedGard if you fully insulated the wall with polyurethane spray foam, but not otherwise (if its 24).
Well plan to glue them up with silicone adhesive/caulk (it will be something like this https://pressedtinpanels.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/PTP-Bathroom-wet-area-installation-guide-2019-PRINT-05-2020.pdf though this is not the company were using because we dont live in Australia). I was wondering if I can use blueskin membranes for my shower tiling project ? Dont be afraid to ask your installer to watch it as well. Wed like to remove the drop and raise it, so the bathroom ceiling is all the same height. Do I have to put down a waterproofing membrane over the top of the foam base? As a professional in the field of shower waterproofing, I am fascinated how this business continues to evolve and expand. All these wall nooks, niches and soap trays had to be custom built by the framer or tiling contractor. So yes, you should cut away the vapor retarder plastic where the Durock is being installed. This might tip the scales in your decision about the Wedi pan!
They mention nothing about any additional waterproofing requirement beneath this product. Schluter also sells a foam shower base (or shower tray) that dominates the prefab shower base market. Make sure you cover the entire surface where you will be aplying yor liquid waterproofing. You might be wondering, Is shower membrane waterproofing a new thing? and Why did the industry decide to abandon the old-school strategies?. But first, a little background about how these membranes are rated for moisture permeability. For instance, if you dont have adequate insulation in your outside stud wall, you may be creating a condensation surface on the face of the membrane because of a temperature differential. This code rule is still in place today in most parts of the world but it has always had serious limitations such as inconsistent coverage and varying degrees of moisture permeability. Even if there is undertile waterproofing, this procedure would also be a good idea because everything must be thoroughly dried out inside and outside before any other repair measures are done in the shower. This means that it is inserted into a hole in your shower wall after the wall has been tiled and grouted, with only a bead of silicon sealant keeping moisture from entering your stud cavity. All of these bases require a waterproofing membrane attached to their top surface along with their own drain assembly (with membrane bonding flange). I attempted to watch a video you had linked but its no longer available. Unfortunately I dont have any suggestions on how to fix this after the fact. Last question. Its great to hear from a fellow tradesman. The fleece coating means that no additional membrane attachment is required for tiles to bond to it. Im wondering if I can use redgard liquid membrane on the drywall AND a waterproof decoupling sheet on top of that. To find out more about the drain, you can look it up on the Schluter Systems website. , To answer your question. I would prefer that you use a good sheet waterproofing membrane instead of Redgard, especially if your outside wall is only 24. Will this be a good solution? It was engineered this way so that your waterproofing membrane and tiles can overlap this flange, creating a drip edge. Regardless of what the Durock rep claims, it seems sketchy to me. Yes, I would suggest that you should indeed apply two complete coats of RedGard in order to establish an adequate perm rating. Silicon might stick well to a liquid membrane, but I wouldnt recommend this either because the air gaps between the Corian & the membrane would trap moisture. Your biggest problem will be water vapour management in the room in general. Get the latest updates on new products and upcoming sales. The tiling has not been installed, so it is better to find this out now than later. Steve. The liquid waterproofing membrane is exemplified by the most popular of these products, Redgard Waterproofing Membrane by Custom Building Products, although there are also a number of other brands out there (more on that later). In that case, would the waterproofing just go along the walls (behind, in our case, pressed metal panels) down to the floor, meeting the wood subfloor? So if I were you, I would remove it and start over. Corians claim that its 100% WATERPROOF isnt really that helpful. Would it be overkill to use Redguard around the drain? Im getting ready to remodel my master bathroom? I think it could work quite well if the corrugations did not allow air to move up behind the panel. A better idea is would be to get your contractor to roll on another layer of RedGard if you wanted the additional protection. from extruded polystyrene foam and have a layer of material on both sides designed for tile mortar bonding. You should download the shower tray brochures from Durock and Wedi to see what sizes they offer and the different drain positions. Personally, I would use the Wedi approach for the corners. If you overlap the waterproofing membrane (on the backer board surface) over the plastic vapor barrier sheet (on the stud surface), moisture will likely be trapped between these layers and condense into water on the surface of the plastic sheet. 1a. Since tile, grout and mortar was never designed to be waterproof, a significant amount of moisture always made it into and around the mortar base, pooling at the liner. I applaud your innovation. Again, Ive got a bunch of tips in my Ceramic or Porcelain post. Most building codes also required that a vapour retarder membrane (plastic sheet or building felt) be installed between the studs and the backer board on outside facing walls, to limit moisture transfer into the framing. But unlike the video, I would recommend that you place the rebar supports, especially if the hole is larger than that in the video. Do you know much about proflex products they seem to offer a product similar to this they are a company out of florida both a liquid and sheet product for waterproofing. Durock sheet waterproofing membrane has a .079 perm rating so it is also very good compared with the other sheet membranes. I think it would be very risky to keep it especially now that you have demoed the upper half of the shower.
Use only shower tile backer board.
Should the waterproofing on the floor go under the new enclosure walls as well as the threshold ledge. Yes, I am calling the foam shower base revolutionary because of all the major problems that it solves in the modern shower. Noble has a few good sheet membrane products designed for shower waterproofing.
This creates a tiny gap at the base of the fleece on each side of the membrane sheet. Sorry for the bad news, but I think that your only viable option is to demolish the entire shower and start over. If the worst case scenario happens and your shower base cracks and leaks, it will likely be a slow leak that you will identify soon enough. With a perm rating under .5, it can be used as a tile backer for steam showers installations according to the Tile Council of North America. After 48 hours I can peel it off like a sticker. Because the Ditra matt was designed as a decoupling membrane as well as a waterproofing membrane, it wouldnt be an appropriate substrate for a shower base. Just a thought. This has always been a stand alone waterproofing system. This is a big concern for me since this could allow water vapor to enter the stud cavity. Because the shower floor and shower walls are exposed to lots of moisture and wide temperature changes, this is also a place where grout line cracking can occur. It is also engineered so it can be used on both shower walls and shower bases. Thats only my guess, but I do think you should talk to someone at Durock that could answer technical questions about the Durock shower system. So Im in the beginning stages of a DIY bathroom remodel. Ive heard so much about pans cracking especially acrylic so Ill try my best to find something more durable but in the worse case scenario it cracks how to mitigate the water that leaksand make the floor more waterproof before installing the prefab shower base pan/tray Its a great idea to apply the Kerdi membrane (or Wedi Subliner Dry) to your mud pan extension but you dont need to wrap it up the wall. It is apparently designed to carry loads (can be installed on floors) and they make it clear that it is NOT an extruded polystyrene product like other foam boards. I have some leftover Durock Tile Membrane (two or more rolls) from a couple of projects. A way to combat this would be to increase the thickness of the wall so more insulation can be installed behind the niche, but this is often not a practical option. I really hope that helps, and good luck with your project! I think Durock on the walls would be great and your Redgard idea would also work very well. Ill try to go over their distinguishing features as well as my preferred products and install techniques. The two top membranes I recommend, the Wedi Subliner Dry and the Durock Waterproofing Membrane by USG, have .05 and .079 perm ratings. Modified mortars apparently can take too long to cure, compromising their bond strength. I mix for 5 minutes at no more than 500 rpms, let slake for 10 minutes and used the higher end of the water spectrum. It can also be used as a crack isolation membrane and it does not require any reinforcing mesh be applied at the seams or corners according to the application instructions. You might as well make your best attempt at doing it correctly and carefully, now that you have a chance. In reading your article (great by the way) Should I cut out the plastic barrier just in the area here the durock will be installed? Just like ordinary tile backer boards, they can serve as a structural, dimensionally stable and load bearing substrate for tile as well as a waterproofing shower membrane. If installed correctly, this membrane did exactly what it was supposed to do; keep water from getting into the subfloor and wall base framing. It sounds like a fun project. And because they are made from foam, they can easily be trimmed to match your shower size and drain position by using a circular saw, hand saw or even a utility knife. I began doing some research and discovered your blog along with various YouTube tutorials. Prior to this technology, the shower base was an engineering nightmare. A shower base should always be structurally connected to a non-deflecting subfloor. I need to break up and remove the concrete to move the drain. Is this a good idea? This is usually a job for a professional, but if you do a bit of online research and youre motivated, you could easily do this yourself as well. Thanks for this post. There is also a series of Kerdi Board prefab shower niches that are designed to be tiled. Let me know if you have any questions for me during your project. In other words, the Durock-drywall margin can be slightly outside the shower zone because it can taped, mudded & finished just like regular drywall (even over the sheet membrane). If I was you I would rip out and start anew!
Foam shower bases (or shower pans) are sold separately or as part of a shower kit that contains several shower waterproofing components. Make sure your contractor follows the installation instructions for these products. I would also make sure the corners and joints are taped. Its a bit more work to apply but its awesome. As for your choice of backer boards, this also depends on how permeable the vinyl is. Thinset is ANSI A118.1. It basically has the same application procedures and limitations as the other liquid membranes. Such a fantastic post thank you so much for your efforts. But I should also say that even if you install all the same shower system components, a successful warrantee claim of this kind is very difficult if things go sideways. When i first came here to have a read i was already dead set on kirdy Ditra floor membrane and either the foam backer boards or the kirdy 200 wall membrane (not decided yet) for the walls. This bonding layer is most often a plastic fabric with fleece webbing for bonding and decoupling however, there are a couple of products that have a cementitious material bonded to their outer surface.
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